[18:05:31] DCG: hi [18:05:45] how are you, neil? :D [18:05:46] hello! [18:05:49] I wonder too, zero_soul. [18:05:57] good thanks [18:06:04] DCG: /nick neilbaldw [18:06:08] please :) [18:06:08] Hey, Neil. [18:06:13] * Zenith` has quit IRC [18:06:23] * DCG is now known as neilbaldw [18:06:26] :D [18:06:28] better? [18:06:31] yes, sir. [18:06:37] welcome :) [18:06:49] i saw you a few days earlier. [18:06:52] how are you this evening? [18:07:07] * lameboy has joined #nesdev [18:07:15] thanks a lot, pretty good thanks. I'm really hating trying to document Nijuu though [18:07:17] * B00daW sets mode: +v neilbaldw [18:07:30] writing manuals is not fun [18:07:30] sure. [18:07:33] hahaha [18:07:34] how so? [18:07:34] * Megumi sets mode: +v lameboy [18:07:37] Welcome, good sir : D [18:07:39] * zero_soul nods respecfully, and steps out of the way. [18:07:52] thanks for coming, by the way. [18:08:05] a lot of people are enjoying you being here. [18:08:11] no problem, i have questions of my own too :) [18:08:14] ok [18:08:17] how about you start? [18:08:21] heh [18:08:41] well, it was mainly to do with my choice of assembler [18:08:51] yes? [18:08:56] do you want to use macros or not? [18:09:01] i started out with dasm, then nesam [18:09:07] then discovered ASM6 [18:09:09] yes [18:09:10] and stuck with that [18:09:11] that's loopy's [18:09:11] * Gil-Galad raises hand. [18:09:13] it's good :) [18:09:13] hopefully not nesasm [18:09:21] * B00daW calls on Gil-Galad [18:09:24] one moment, please [18:09:26] Thanks. [18:09:36] let's wait until assembler talk is done, ok? [18:09:37] ah, so Gil-Galad = loopy? [18:09:39] unless you have something useful [18:09:40] no [18:09:43] _loopy = loopy [18:09:48] lol [18:09:48] <_loopy> hello [18:09:48] _loopy: you around? [18:09:50] of course [18:09:53] I suggest WLA DX, because of multiple CPU support and in my opinion ease of use. [18:09:53] hey, loopy :) [18:09:54] * tristendo has joined #nesdev [18:09:58] Hey neil! [18:09:59] * p2_ has joined #nesdev [18:10:18] * Megumi sets mode: +v p2_ [18:10:30] i've seen a lot of other options but as I'm on an Intel MacBook running leopard, there's not as many choices [18:10:41] bunnyboy uses Mac [18:10:45] bunnyboy: what do you use? [18:10:54] bunnyboy has also made the powerpak [18:10:55] so ASM6 is a popular choice then? [18:10:59] i use nesasm which is shunned :) [18:11:00] Neilbadw: No, Sir. I rip NSFs commonly, and translation hacks from Japanese to English and other NES hacking. [18:11:01] yay windows-centricism. :-\ [18:11:03] a NES cart using an FPGA that can do any mapper [18:11:21] ASM6 is a very good choice for NES specific [18:11:34] neilbaldw: have you considered using a VM? [18:11:37] * lameboy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [18:11:38] I'm on a Macbook Pro as well, though running Windows [18:11:44] windows or linux is very helpful for nesdev. [18:11:50] There's always that option [18:11:52] i do have parallels desktop but i just don't like going back to windows [18:11:53] p2_ may have some things to offer. [18:11:57] after 7 years [18:12:01] mac is nice [18:12:06] i love mac, but just pointing out a fact. [18:12:16] no problem :) [18:12:29] so, if i can just pester loopy for a second? [18:12:29] windows is almost a necessity for debugging, no mac emulators have any useful debugger [18:12:46] there's always WINE. [18:12:47] <_loopy> ca65, dasm, wla-dx... I think these are more commonly used. asm6 has a small but loyal following :) [18:13:01] i learned on asm6 :) [18:13:06] it's no bullshit and works. [18:13:09] but doesn't do macros. [18:13:17] <_loopy> neil: ask me anything [18:13:31] ASM6 does do macros [18:13:41] hrm... i must not have used them. [18:13:44] i retract that. [18:13:50] in fact, the whole of Nijuu is built on them LOL [18:13:55] :D [18:13:58] * B00daW pats loopy on the back [18:14:04] loopy is someone special [18:14:05] * gannon_ has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [18:14:17] My favourite assembler is XASM, for the 6502 [18:14:20] it's written in D [18:14:31] loopy, one thing that I like about nesasm that ASM6 doesn't do as well (actually two things) local labels [18:14:40] I got my first taste of NES coding with nesasm. from what I've heard, it's not that great a tool, but it might be viewed as a good introduction, like BASIC is to programming. [18:15:18] I've also used NESASM. It's not real hard to use. [18:15:20] nesasm can do local labels? I thought it couldn't. [18:15:44] * gannon_ has joined #nesdev [18:15:45] yes, in nesasm you precede your label with a "." [18:15:47] most assemblers do local labels I thought. I like nameless labels at times [18:15:55] <_loopy> I haven't looked at nesasm much. how do local labels work? [18:16:02] neilbaldw: so, if you may, why 'nijyuu' ? Only to mean 20 ? [18:16:08] neilbaldw: memblers is the curator of nesdev forums [18:16:14] I was about to mention that nameless labels are really nice. Not sure if asm6 does them or not. [18:16:43] <_loopy> it does nameless labels [18:16:44] p2_: that's on the forum [18:16:45] <_loopy> x816 style [18:16:49] 20 years of NES development [18:16:55] of or since [18:16:55] ASM6 uses the "+" and "-" method of forward/backward branching [18:17:03] yeah [18:17:04] it's almost local labels :) [18:17:04] Right. was wondering if there's more to it [18:17:05] that's super useful [18:17:12] i don't think so [18:17:25] neilbaldw: i have a question [18:17:34] see, personally, i don't find the +/- very readable [18:17:34] <_loopy> adding local labels would not be hard to do [18:17:36] how were assemblers of 1990's compared to the assemblers of today? [18:17:45] specific details please [18:17:45] one idea I've had for an assembler would be explicit scope blocks, and any labels within the block are not visible outside the scope and do not affect anything outside of it (old definitions are restored)> [18:17:51] hang on, let me get my wishlist into loopy :) [18:18:07] <_loopy> loopy, one thing that I like about nesasm that ASM6 doesn't do as well (actually two things) local labels [18:18:09] <_loopy> what's the 2nd thing? [18:18:13] i think "ACME" does the "scope" thing. [18:18:31] the second one is the ability to count the number of parameters passed to a macro [18:18:46] @ is another standard prefix for locals, I guess "." does sound better though. ca65 uses @ [18:18:59] nesasm uses "/?" so you can count how many parameters have been specified [18:19:00] i use ca65 and dasm [18:19:07] ca65's macros are awesome [18:19:13] but it's probably the most complicated assembler [18:19:19] "." as a prefix would make it look like an assembler directive. "@" is probably more intuitive: a label meaningful only "at" this location. [18:19:21] dasm was good, if you have a version with .incbin [18:19:33] dasm doesn't do enough passes to be sane [18:19:36] i tried to get ca65 to work but it just seems a mess to get running [18:20:01] nah... it's not hard once it's running. [18:20:05] ca65 is really excellent once you get it set up... it's just hard to set up. [18:20:06] VERY helpful [18:20:09] just steal some code first [18:20:11] and patch yours in [18:20:18] and RTFM, yunno? [18:20:20] <_loopy> I guess indexing args in macros might be useful at times.. like @1 @2 @3, instead of names [18:20:39] yeah setting up the linker can be a big ordeal, for making a simple program that doens't need any fancy memory map [18:20:40] ca65 and asm6 are probably the best [18:20:43] yes, ideally, do what nesasm does and prefix local labels with @, then the scope of them only lasts between two non-local labels. job done :) [18:20:54] asm6 is great for being no bullshit [18:21:00] * lameboy has joined #nesdev [18:21:10] * Megumi sets mode: +v lameboy [18:21:15] RTFM....:) [18:21:32] :D [18:21:42] Read The Fucking Manual. [18:21:49] I have a question for Mr. Baldwin [18:21:56] WITFM [18:21:56] bucky: wait sir [18:22:02] aka, where is the fucking manual ? [18:22:02] i had one until he was done with loopy. [18:22:03] sure thing! [18:22:03] loopy : i'd just find it massively usefuly to be able to count the parameters [18:22:14] he's still talking to loopy, bucky. [18:22:19] then i have a question, and then you. [18:22:20] ok? [18:22:26] (sounds good) [18:22:30] Gil had one too, I believe. [18:22:34] <_loopy> I can throw that in... shouldn't be too much trouble [18:22:45] Gil: is your question unanswered? [18:22:49] should we go to moderation? [18:22:50] ok, now I've set loopy off to look through his source (thanks loopy, much appreciated), fire away [18:23:01] LordNLptp: not yet, but you are welcome to jump in. [18:23:02] i trust you. [18:23:16] ok neil [18:23:23] * LordNLptp has never moderated a channel before [18:23:25] * Kapow has quit IRC [18:23:36] *takes a gulp of white russian* [18:23:37] comparing today's assemblers to assemblers of the past, what are the benefits and let downs? [18:23:49] B00daW: I haven't asked a question. I recommended an assembler that I use now days. However, I am currious about a question that someone else asked about the differences of assemblers back then, compared to today. [18:24:00] alright [18:24:08] neil: i'm also talking about what OS you were working on [18:24:11] and your dev environment [18:24:17] all the nitty-gritty please. [18:24:17] ok, assemblers [18:24:20] lol [18:24:39] we actually wrote our own assembler eventually [18:24:45] and then also... touch on your composition environment [18:24:55] is that ok? [18:24:58] we used iit on NES and then later we added SNES support [18:25:05] yeah no problem [18:25:06] how many people is "we"? [18:25:18] oh, back then, 5 [18:25:24] which company? [18:25:28] eurocom [18:25:31] thnks [18:25:37] no problem [18:25:47] * lameboy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [18:25:56] we had no interactive debuggers etc [18:26:28] but it was a rudimentary IDE in as much as it was an editor with a built in assembler/disassembler [18:26:56] i actually got it compiling but had to use DosBox as it wouldn't work in anything else [18:27:04] and nothing even like plain 6502 emulator? [18:27:09] it was so old that it predated windows LOL [18:27:11] the previous environment? [18:27:26] yes [18:27:49] would you be willing to upload such code here? [18:28:09] ah, the 64000 dollar question [18:28:13] I'm not sure [18:28:26] Chris S gave me his code a while back. [18:28:28] I've yet to broach the subject with the other directors at eurocom [18:28:33] hmm how does this QA thing work? no moderation? [18:28:40] so i probably already have it. [18:28:47] lol really? [18:28:49] yep [18:28:52] he's a good guy [18:28:54] do you know Chris then? [18:29:00] i worked with frank c. [18:29:06] we don't like each other anymore. [18:29:07] ah [18:29:11] lol [18:29:26] so it's probably moot whether or not you do. [18:29:29] i was just asking. [18:29:42] but please let's move on. [18:29:46] back to your environment [18:29:51] ok lets [18:29:54] A lot of us are intensely curious about old development kits. [18:29:59] lol [18:30:07] i wish i could remember more [18:30:22] what OS were you on? [18:30:34] DOS? [18:30:38] Win 3.1? [18:30:43] as i said onthe website, we had an electronics guy make up some monster boards with EPROMS and a big ribbon cable [18:30:46] DOS [18:30:48] random related fact: some old devkits survived, such as the gimix system that all the old williams games were written on [18:31:05] arcade stuff [18:31:10] but whatever, ignore me [18:31:13] ok... thanks lord. ;P [18:31:26] * tristendo has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) [18:31:26] then there was a data comms card in the PCs we had that used to just chuck binary files at the EPROMs [18:31:57] a PROM burner? [18:32:05] so the board was programmed while in the nes, you werent swapping eproms between the board and a separate programmer? [18:32:06] did you have the official dev docs are was it reverse engineered? [18:32:07] Was IBM DOS clones used? [18:32:08] we were using some really REALLY basic Amstrad PCs - amber monitors and everyfink! [18:32:26] * Low-Gain has joined #nesdev [18:32:28] bunnyboy first [18:32:31] thefox second [18:32:35] gil third [18:32:51] yes the board was stuck in the cartridge slot and the cable hung out of it [18:33:12] (hello, logan) [18:33:23] I guess it was some kind of flash-ROM thing? i wish i knew more about electronics [18:33:42] programmable ROM probalby [18:33:44] *probably [18:33:59] [18:32:06] did you have the official dev docs are was it reverse engineered? [18:34:00] could have been eeprom, too early for common flash usage? [18:34:29] we never had any official docs, Taxan managed to get photocopies of japanese docs from somewhere and we had them partly translated and guessed the rest through trial and error [18:34:40] awesome! [18:34:44] that's cool [18:34:44] * lameboy has joined #nesdev [18:34:50] it took a long, long time [18:34:58] yeah... we're still really piecing the puzzle together now [18:35:00] * Megumi sets mode: +v lameboy [18:35:07] not like today's GBA or DS development [18:35:07] i think we were hacking away at it for 6 months before we got anything working [18:35:11] (which is unrelated) [18:35:20] that's hilarious and awesome [18:35:24] lol [18:35:27] yeah [18:35:31] sounds lik eus [18:35:33] *sounds like us [18:35:42] kevtris who is here pretty much sired NESdev [18:35:43] * b-knox has joined #nesdev [18:35:45] you earned your knowledge. we practically just look it up these days. heh. [18:35:49] we were desperate to get it all working, there was only Rare in the UK doing NES stuff and we saw an opportunity in the market [18:36:27] Rare was an amazing company. [18:36:30] They knew their shit. [18:36:35] Hello Mr Baldwin, glad you could make it :) [18:36:39] *spit* [18:36:41] lol [18:36:44] haha [18:36:47] donkey kong country! [18:36:52] dkc owns [18:36:57] guys [18:36:57] my all time favorite... [18:37:00] sorry [18:37:02] ok, admitedly, they did make some ace stuff [18:37:04] sorry. [18:37:10] there, I said it :) [18:37:12] :D [18:37:15] :) [18:37:18] bastards [18:37:20] hahaha [18:37:21] ok [18:37:22] [18:32:07] Was IBM DOS clones used? [18:37:25] anyway, did i miss a question? [18:37:27] ah [18:37:42] I'm not sure, they probably were DOS clones [18:37:45] alright [18:37:48] bucky: you around? [18:37:50] definitely not IBM [18:37:53] ask the man a question [18:37:55] I believe he answered the question right afterwards. Amstrad. [18:38:06] sorry to distract, but i missed it, dos clone for hwat? [18:38:11] read up [18:38:24] yes, Amstrad, green mono monitor or an amber one if you were lucky :) [18:38:39] alright. bucky isn't around. bunnyboy has a question. [18:38:52] ok fire away [18:38:56] * Roth wants a spot in line to ask a question [18:39:00] you're next [18:39:01] during that 6 months of reverse engineering, were you getting paid and where was that money coming from? [18:39:06] and bucky can jump in at any time [18:39:07] sorry, at work, I'll wait for the next open slot [18:39:10] * zero_soul takes a number. [18:39:16] bucky you're after roth [18:39:18] lol, this is quite amusing [18:39:23] * lameboy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [18:39:24] and zero is after bucky [18:39:30] right, money [18:39:41] bunnyboy does current commercial NES development [18:39:44] http://retrousb.com [18:39:46] or was it a big frat party? :) [18:39:48] basically, eurocom was set up by one of the other directors fathers [18:40:16] we borrowed offices from his company - it was hillarious, you know how programmers don't like daylight [18:40:28] we tapped cardboard boxes to the inside of all the windows [18:40:30] darkness and caffeine. [18:40:31] yeah [18:40:45] fucking brilliant. :P [18:40:50] one room, 5 of us sat around frowning at 200 pages of japanese nonsense [18:41:00] hahaahah! [18:41:02] :) [18:41:35] so, we were lucky that the guy had some faith in us and paid us a wage while we tried to get our shit together [18:42:08] heh [18:42:08] i say paid, we're not talking much above burger-flipping on the salary scale [18:42:17] but we were having a great time [18:42:18] unfortunately, i understand [18:42:29] felt like real pioneers [18:42:33] sure, man [18:42:37] your music is boss, man [18:42:40] ignoring the fact that rare were already doing it :) [18:42:41] for not using DPCM [18:42:53] Actually, my question pertains to DPCM. :) [18:42:55] i have a question, but won't butt out of line. [18:43:01] roth first [18:43:01] hey bucky! [18:43:05] Roth? [18:43:08] I've noticed that some games between different companies would have similar sound effects, or similar game engines. Was there ever any communication between programmers from different companies? [18:43:14] * zero_soul thought he mentioned on his site that at least one of his music sets (Magician, I think) used a touch of DPCM. [18:44:01] Roth : not at all man, we really did exist in a vacuum, we didn't even ask for help from the guys ar Rare, who we kind of knew from the C64 days and were only geographically down the road from us [18:44:19] 2a0x must have been a real step down from SID though [18:44:25] Interesting! Thanks. [18:44:27] SID is entirely superior [18:44:41] in a way, yes, the SID is an amazing chip [18:44:42] aside from the channels [18:44:51] 3 channels [18:44:53] xP [18:45:07] bucky? [18:45:09] it's not music from the SID that many of us have fond memories of, though. :P [18:45:11] sure- [18:45:14] You've mentioned that Magician was the only one of your works to use DPCM samples. Do you recall the source of those sounds? Were they something like 8-bit drum machine sounds initially, or something else altogether? I've been wondering if composers had like a library of samples on their Amiga or whatever and went from there... [18:45:18] i was really a total amateur on C64, just trying to emulate Hubbard etc. I never really had any commercial success [18:45:49] always wondered the source for those samples, in general... [18:45:54] hey bucky, sorry i never got around to answering your question via email/website [18:46:05] that's cool, figured I'd ask here :) [18:46:08] bucky is a fellow philadelphian [18:46:12] a lot of us are here :) [18:46:19] well, more than couple ;) [18:46:24] i've been racking my brains for the source of those samples [18:46:49] they would've either been ripped out of a game [18:46:56] zero_soul [18:46:57] though which game is was, I'm not sure [18:47:04] another NES game? [18:47:22] i know we did pull apart some (yes) games at the time when we were trying to decypher the NES [18:47:58] zero_soul [18:48:03] well, not sure if this was already answered or not, but, if you didn't have interactive debuggers, how did you do debugging? with a generic 6502 emulator (like someone else mentioned earlier)? judicious use of debug macros? staring at the code for a few hours until it hit you? [18:48:05] ah, interesting. [18:48:16] on the other hand, the Yamaha keyboard that i used to work tunes out on had some of those auto-accompany drums and i know at one point we tried to sample them using some sampling cartridge on the Atari ST [18:48:27] * lameboy has joined #nesdev [18:48:27] cool! [18:48:40] thanks, bucky... neil. [18:48:43] i think it was a Yamaha PSR-something-or-other [18:48:58] * Megumi sets mode: +v lameboy [18:49:03] who's next - zero_soul? [18:49:07] yessir [18:49:30] * miau has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [18:49:42] its sick how much easier nes development is nowadays.. [18:49:54] yes, you got it - loads of debugging variable that we'd watch by just hex-printing them on screen and staring at the code for hours, and hours and hours [18:50:06] Wow. [18:50:06] exactly the way I've just been writing Nijuu [18:50:15] neil: that's a shame [18:50:18] that's how I debug too, tho I usually use a serial port [18:50:20] * tristendo has joined #nesdev [18:50:39] B00daW, are we going to go topic by topic here, if so what topics will we cover? [18:50:41] if you wanted to, you could come by as an educated novice and we could show you the current way; after the QA session. :) [18:50:54] thefox: it's question to related question. [18:51:04] hello [18:51:27] what was weird was that I totally fell right back into that way of working - even though it's laborious and does give you a nosebleed from time to time....it feels natural to me, even today [18:51:27] i have a q about nijuu [18:51:36] we were using some really REALLY basic Amstrad PCs - amber monitors and everyfink! < amstrad pc1512s, probably? [18:51:44] thefox and then Lord [18:51:49] thefox: go ahead? [18:51:51] *. [18:51:59] Lord : yes, jesus, that's exactly the ones [18:52:14] did you think about cpu usage / memory efficiency at all when designing nijuu? [18:52:21] i'm trying to keep up, apologies if im missing anyone [18:52:24] basically is it going to be usable in games/demos [18:52:30] neli: no sense apologizing :) [18:52:34] *neil [18:52:35] good question, thefox [18:52:52] I'm writing the manual at the moment and that's the first paragraph in the preface [18:53:05] i'll paste it in.....hang on [18:53:12] i just want to again extend our hand to you. [18:53:21] i want you to feel that there is no distance between our generations. [18:53:34] if you need help or want to share information, we're here. [18:53:38] From the manual: [18:53:41] One thing to bear in mind from the outset: Nijuu has not been written in a way that makes it friendly to use in any other environment other than to make stand-alone NSF music files. It uses a LOT of CPU time and a LOT of RAM and is (currently, perhaps always) horribly under-optimised. My approach has been to make a musician-friendly engine, rather than bleeding-edge code. That's not to say you couldn't use Nijuu in a game/demo [18:53:42] etc. but I'm just warning you that Nijuu doesn't care about anything but itself. There's statistics and figures further into the documentation that will prove this beyond doubt. There are some obvious areas for improvement, especially with the RAM usage but until I've stopped adding features and generally improving how Nijuu is to use, I won't be optimising anything. [18:54:31] * mrTr0ut has joined #nesdev [18:55:04] well, i have a very to the point question. [18:55:11] why did you decide to code nijuu? [18:55:11] go for it [18:55:21] you know, i'm not even sure myself [18:55:42] what happened was this [18:56:10] there's an unreleased full game of music that was never released, it's easily my best NES work [18:56:19] hero quest? [18:56:24] nope [18:56:30] what! [18:56:30] haha [18:57:03] If it's better than Magician and HeroQuest... I want it. :D [18:57:07] and it took me quite a lot of effort to get the old code compiling in a Mac environment [18:57:31] very intriguing [18:57:49] during the time i spend (it is Bucky) getting the code compiling I noticed quite a lot of stuff in the old sound engine that was badly done, or not working, or buggy [18:58:05] * lameboy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [18:58:06] so i started fixing it up a bit, not too much though, I didn't want to mess with the music [18:58:14] timing and whatnot [18:58:15] yeah [18:58:34] yeah, god, the timing on my old engine was sloppy, to say the least [18:58:42] neilbaldw: Gil is probably the best NSF ripper. [18:58:45] you'll want him. [18:58:48] i looked through and did a forehead slap [18:58:59] it was so obvious why my timing was sloppy [18:59:09]